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Right? We're already one. And there's something about that that's so powerful. So why don't you hug somebody's neck as you sit down this morning. Let's bless them. Tell them how good they look. All right. Well, good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Some may have slipped in a little late. And so just give you a heads up on the morning. We're going to have a panel here. You might get some questions in your heart. They're going to put a phone number up there. You can text in. I'm not going to tell you whose number that is. But if some of you Gen Z folks want to light this number up in the middle of the night, you feel free to do that, okay? It's all right. We give you permission to do that. That's right. Well, it's a South Florida number. We know that. So we've deduced that it's a South Florida number. We have deduced that. I will tell you, it is not my number. I'm not crazy enough to do that. It is not my number. I put my phone on silent at night anyway. So it's all right. Really, though, we want... Maybe there's some questions stirring in your heart towards what we've talked a lot about this week of being anchored. And I want to invite the guys up. Go ahead and invite Glenn up, Terrell up, Randy. You guys go ahead and come if you don't mind. We got the most comfortable chairs in the building for you to sit in. I'm just kidding. That's not true. I apologize. Somebody was saying before, we got to get better chairs, more comfortable chairs. So that's it. That's right. That's right. So we've got some mics there that they're going to bring. You guys, yeah, go ahead. Corey, bring those over here if you don't mind. Corey will kind of run around here. Now, I will say to you guys, we have a tremendous amount of experience here in pastoring people, in apostolic leadership, in vocational ministry. We're all in ministry. How many of you know that we're all in ministry? And so that's a core message of what we teach, of course. But these guys have really been shepherding and pastoring people for a long time. And you can tell that when they pour out to us. And at night, it's been so powerful. Thank you guys for pouring out to us. It's just been so, so good. I'll start us off with the questions. This is kind of a, you know, maybe a typical question, but I think it's a great one because when you have folks that are really seasoned in caring for people, it's a good opportunity to look back. You have a perspective that is difficult to have. And I'll ask this in kind of two ways. Here in the building, and then we also have some more seasoned folks as well. And let me ask you this question. Any of you guys that want to take this can, and all of you may chime in on it. If you could go, if you could sit down with your younger self, what would you tell them about becoming anchored in God? If you could sit down with your younger self, what would you tell your younger self about being anchored in God? And let me ask it twofold. One, obviously, there's some younger folks here that have a lot of their life experience. And two, if you could sit down with them, what would you tell them about becoming anchored in God? And let me ask this question. And maybe they're saying, you know what? I'm not a spring chicken anymore, but I've been ministered to at this conference. I want to, you know, where do I start now? Maybe I didn't do it then, but where do I start now? So whichever one of you guys want to take that question first. SS, make sure everybody's mics on now. We don't want to, we want to eliminate excuses. Okay. We'll make sure. Very good. What are the other guys, Glenn? Speaking of hearing counsel and receiving, probably the generation I grew up in, sometimes the younger guys will ask, Glenn, what was it like when you were 30 looking for a spiritual father? And I didn't know what a spiritual father was when I was 30. I didn't think I needed one. So that wasn't even in my wheelhouse. You know, we were at that time learning and began to use some of the language, but we wouldn't have known the reality of it. I really think the three things that I shared Monday morning is one of the things that we, I grew through and didn't know it at the time, but that was just coming to know. And that was the sovereignty of God to really get an understanding of the sovereignty of God. I think that would keep me and has kept me. It is those three things and a theology of suffering and a revelation of the present reign of Christ. Those are probably those three things we emphasize. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I think, I don't know how anybody can be anchored, be honest with you, uh, without that's from my perspective. And I grew out of the teaching on the church in the early eighties to understanding that, uh, uh, more clarity on the kingdom, uh, in the mid eighties. So if you have a King, as we said Monday, then you've got to have a sovereign. You can't have a King without being sovereign. So that's really was the emphasis that we kind of stumbled into or grew into. And, but I think those three areas, if I could, speak to myself, I don't know how you could get any earlier, any, I mean, I don't know how I could have gotten any other way because of those days we didn't know it. Uh, and then the prayer part, that was a big part of it. You know, the theology, uh, that doctrine in the prayer, I think the prayer probably, uh, helped sustain me because I didn't have any other place to go at no other place. Very good. I would, I would say, um, I'm not, I'm not sure exactly how we're qualifying young. Um, but we, we see youthfulness. Differently as we age, um, everybody's young to me now, but you see it in different stages, but I can say, um, to, to be careful, not just to be around ministry and around the things of God, but to really dive in. Um, we, we see that God would come and speak with Moses face to face and the glory of God would come down and, uh, cover the tent of meeting. God would share with Moses and then the cloud would, uh, would lift and everyone would be leaving. But it said, but Joshua, Moses's young aid, aid would stay there. He would stay in the presence of God. And, uh, with respect, church can be very dangerous. Religion can be very dangerous because it ends up getting centered in activity, and performance, and we can have the appearance, but not have the commitment. We can have the graces and the gifts, but not really have the desire and hunger for God and just kind of flow with the crowd. Uh, I, I know as I begin to grow spiritually, it was because I would not just be around the things of God. As I shared regarding the mega ministry that I came from, all of the who's who in ministry came through there. So I had an opportunity to be in intimate settings with major leaders. Um, but from that, I would take away going to get into my space with God. It was just, and it wasn't anything that I knew to do. It was just the leading of God that moved me into something I've said forever, that we must be more consumed with the Lord of the work versus, the work of the Lord. And as leaders, many of us are consumed with the work and we don't, uh, have a Sabbath. We don't just stop and we don't take time through the day to stop and settle in God because so much to do. And I would say that more than anything is learn like Joshua, who the Bible records did twice the miracles of Moses. Moses was in, well, territory, conquered twice the territories of Moses or 31 territories of conflict, but Moses was in the presence of God, but the territorial conquest. And we know the kingdom of God deals in territory. The territorial conquest, uh, was greater in Joshua than it was in Moses. And he was the one that bashed in the presence of God. That's really good. And I think, um, too, it's interesting to me when you see Joshua going beyond Moses and that you see Elisha, you know, twice as many miracles as Elijah. I'm just wondering about the generational component of that. You know, like we, we growing up in the United States is Jonathan's opinion. Sometimes you, you have this idea, we have this innate in us that everything's got to be accomplished in my lifetime. We don't have a generational mindset of really setting the next generation up to truly go beyond where we are. And I mean, it's such a, in my opinion, kingdom, new Testament principle, but we just seemingly ignore it, you know, because it's like, we're so consumed, our own success. That's a very good, very good point. Uh, Glenn, you mentioned sovereignty. We've heard that a little bit. Sovereignty of God this week has come out in some of the, the messages here. Uh, how do you think that, uh, your understanding of God's sovereignty is to be for any of you guys has shifted over the years. And were there particular things that, uh, shifted it? Uh, one thing I really appreciate about Glenn, those that know him know this, he's not one to push people in theological corners, recognizing that, you know, some of those major theological shifts take long time, you know, as God processes through them. I'm just wondering if there's some key moments, uh, in your life, key events in your life, or just ways that God shifted that understanding. And then, uh, maybe Glenn, you start with you, and then maybe you other guys could chime in on that as well. Well, I know sometimes I'll talk about the eighties because those were the forming days. Those were very difficult, very hard days, uh, especially from about 87 through 89 and 90. Really, there was a long period. There was a long period. There was a long period. There was a long period. There was a long period. There was a long period, uh, where our congregation had gone through 225 and stayed that way for five years. And it was just a healing time, uh, knowing God was at work in the heart of us, as he brought in those that had were pastoring other places and brought in here. During those two month period, there was a lot that we couldn't answer, but we knew, uh, you know, we knew that God was at work and really to trust God in the midst of that was it was like, okay, I know this is what God is doing, so what is it going to look like? And can I just embrace this process in the middle of it? And that was a big deal to trust the sovereignty of God, to see God's hand working in those difficult times and looking back on it. There were some real key moments where you could look back and say, hey, okay, now I can see. And that's kind of my default now. I see God's hand in everything. But in those early days, I was learning about how to see God's hand in it because it was really, really, really hard. But I knew that God had sent us here and there wasn't anything we could do but just walk it out. And so that's when I had to trust, okay, God, you're at work, really probably changing me. And that's always where it starts, changing me more. Somebody said, what was the biggest change that happened in the church there? It was Glenn Schaefer. That was the biggest change that took place. And so seeing God's hand at work in that, I think, was a big part of it. I think for me, very similar. I was doing a whole lot in my life, traditional, conservative, religious environments and pure-filled, charismatic environments with a lot of shifting going on. And as a result of that, there was theological. There was a lot of shifting going on in the church as well. I see it differently. It started with eschatology. Eschatology was the first domino to fall. And then once that fell, then all of a sudden, things began to open up. And I can't put my finger on exactly when. I think it was just more of a process. But I came to realize, and I think this was in me because I had good teaching when I was young, even though they weren't, quote, Reformed or Calvinist or whatever. There was still an element. There was still an element of understanding the sovereignty of God. But for me, it came to a point when I realized that God was the center of his own play and not me. And I think we humans think we're the center of the story. We read the Bible as if, okay, this is about me or this needs to tell me something that I need to be doing as opposed to, no, this is about God and what God is doing. And we can either get on board or not. And that suddenly opened up the whole world. Sovereignty to me because God's in charge and he's in charge of everything. He's not just in charge of some things. He's either sovereign over everything or he's sovereign over nothing, right? And there's no partial sovereignty. There's no such thing as an in-betweener. You know, he's sovereign over everything. So when that revelation hit me, it took me to a whole other level of understanding the word of God. And so then you read it from that perspective, from Genesis to Revelation. It's a narrative. And God is the center of the story. This is all about him, what he's doing, what he wants to do. And I don't want to say it flippantly, but in some sense, we don't matter. We do. You know, please don't hear what I'm not saying. Don't hear what I'm not saying. Yeah, that's right. Don't read into what I'm trying not to say. But we matter to God. But in the grand scheme of things, he's all that matters. Let me just say it that way. I was sharing with Cheryl yesterday. We were talking and she and I were just agreeing that where God is concerned. And I ministered this long ago in ministry, probably, gosh, back in the mid 90s. I ministered a message entitled, You Better Love It. Because you won't always understand. And so you must love it. And I know for me at age 50, I was. I was unemployed, basically, at age 50 and had to move out of a place of entitlement to recognizing his sovereignty. We can feel like we've got enough time in that you should be doing this for me by now. Oh, yes. You know, it's like, come on, it's your boy. And we've got, you know, I did this. And so why are you not responding? Like you should, because we get into this transactional thing with God and God's saying until you discover it's relational and that I'm in charge and whose house God's house, I run everything. And so I had to break out of an entitlement. I was telling Derek yesterday, I gained more from 40 to 50 than I did from zero to 39 influence. Wealth position, status accomplishment more in 10 years than I did in 39. So now I'm on the flip side of this. And what did I have to do with that 40 to 50 year year increase? Nothing. It was just gone. And so sovereignty, his sovereignty being recognized even in our success, because none of us are good enough to be blessed the way we are. None of us deserve. what we get he's so merciful and kind on your best day we're still jacked up you know on our highest praying in the spirit moment i can come out and susan say can you go to the grocery store i'm like ben with god we don't do groceries you got to get that walmart delivery revelation right there that chariot in here and release the groceries in the name of jesus because you get into these places where we forget who is in charge and how incredible god is and so for for me it was having to say god i release everything for whatever your plan is whatever your desire is and i'll wrap it up here because i was i was you know the cream de la cream i was at the top of the the food chart as far as young men of god leading ministries from nothing into something and i had to divest all of those things and realize this is gods plan gods will gods way and it changed me this is and it didn't mean that everything got better for me but he and i got better and that's what mattered most and i would just say who are we to hold god accountable you know that's tend to that's tend to you know you said something similar to that but that's we tend to do that you know you know i'm holding you accountable and i'm keeping a chart yeah yeah yeah where were you well that kind of is the the crux of the matter you know i mean we've we've grown up in a stream of christianity that has really made us the center of our own universe i mean we're a bunch of little narcissists running around you know in that and um i love the statement that you made glenn yesterday that you know people would would say you know god's sovereign why pray you're saying well god's not sovereign why pray that's fantastic statement there's a reality that you need to your point randy that you know he's not partially there's no in-betweener there that's very very good very good along that line can you guys talk about this a little bit of a shift one of the questions from the audience here can you talk about the role of accountability and hearing truth from others how that's played in helping you stayed anchored even in your older years or the season of life that you're in now the role of accountability and hearing truth from others is played in helping you stay anchored in your influences grown as your measures grown uh just in these uh this season of ministry i would say for myself that athletics played a and zorn may be able to connect with this but athletics played a major role in my life of being able to be accountable to be uh redirected to be instructed to be led uh it was god working through that entity for his kingdom purposes that taught me how to follow. I was telling someone yesterday that I'm 64 years old, and I still get permission from my spiritual father. I still check with him on things that I do. I still bring him into my life. And we know dennis, he'll correct you. And the first time he ever corrected me, I was like, wow. Wow. He's correcting me. I'm a grown A man. Now the A's for apostolic. What are y'all doing? Come on. Get your mind out of the gutter. He did say from the street. To the pure, all things are pure. Right. That's good. But it's where all of us need to be. But it's strengthened my life. It's strengthened my marriage. It's strengthened my financial stewardship. It's strengthened my leadership, the ministry, the networks I worked in. It's made me better for people and to be able to model that. And I don't make anyone accountable. If people become accountable, great. But I think for me, it really has been a continuum in my life that I've been yielded to and the fruit of it, I think, has led me in the places that have allowed me to be a servant to more people. Yeah. And I would just say to make sure you're accountable to someone that's not going to tell you what you want to hear. Make sure that you're identifying with those people in your life that will actually confront you and to tell you the truth. And that's I've had the benefit of that with dennis and others who have held me accountable. Who is. Yeah. And you got to and you got to give them permission to do that. You know, I've said, listen, don't take it easy on me. And that's that comes from athletics as well. And I learned that because I didn't I didn't want to coach to soft pedal. I wanted to coach to be hard on me. And at the time, sometimes I react. But the reality is I knew the heart of the coach was on me. The more he loved me and the more he saw something in me was trying to bring the best out of me. And so that's helped me over the years as well. My athletic background, but also just having. And of course, that takes some humility. You know, you got to humble yourself and put yourself in a position because, I mean, our flesh, we want to hear what we want to hear. Tell me what I've already decided to do. Firm the decision I've already made. And then we say that must be God. Oh, that must be your stinky, rotten flesh. Yeah. So I don't think I chose accountability. I think I was backed into it because when you've been there 46 years. The emperor has no clothes. I mean, everybody knows. Might as well admit that you're not what you thought you were. And that's really the truth. I mean, really the dealings of God backed in the corner and recognized, wait a minute, I need some help. Because I didn't come from any kind of background of asking for accountability. In fact, some of the spiritual sons teach me about being a son when I watch them and how they respond. I really have. I've learned from that. And in the process of that, the thing that really started accountability for us was the teen ministry of having really raising up a team of elders. That was a death for me. And I've learned that most places the pastor has his elders. And I don't see that as New Testament. I see that there is a lead among elders, but those are not his elders. And it may sound the same when you say, we have a team that has a leader rather than a leader with a team. And we say that sometimes. We're not a leader with a team. It sounds the same, but it's not the same. It really is a full accountability, especially if those team members have the grace that can speak and have that place. And so it's been a gradual thing for me. It really was over the years. And yeah. Where some people are real introspective, I've not been introspective. So when I repent, I'm really convicted. I mean, the lord really dealt with me, you know, because I'm wanting to be more. I'm not self-introspective. It's like God has to show me. And he can do that through other people. And that's the key thing to say. Truth comes from anyone, whether they're in authority or not. And let me say this too real quickly. And I might address some of the criticism stuff tonight on some of those areas. But. I know we use the term holding people accountable. I don't know if that's a proper term because you hold yourself accountable. I don't know if I can hold you accountable. I can be I can offer accountability. That may be a fair way to say it. And I can ask the questions. But you can lie to me and I'll never know it. What I've learned to rest on is just the fact to ask the question was enough because they can walk away and the holy spirit's not through with them. No matter what they tell me. So I'm not really. You know, you've got to hold. You've got to create it. You've got to create it. For an example, in a marriage. I'll just throw this in here right quick in a marriage for us husbands. If we don't set the boundaries ourselves, then your wife will become your mother. So you have to lead the way to be more stringent on yourself than you're waiting for your wife to do. Does that make sense? So that's a good lesson of how to hold yourself accountable. Be thinking. What would the ones in the spiritual authority my life? What would they be wanting me to do right now? You know, where are the well, I can go. They're going to forgive me. That's not what we're after. We're not after forgiveness. We already have that right. Okay. What we're really after is the idea of what can I see beyond myself? How can I see beyond myself? And that's a huge, huge thing. Really good. Here's another question from the audience here. What's the difference between being emotionally moved by God and being spiritually anchored in God? What's the difference between being emotionally moved by God and being spiritually anchored in God? Yeah, I had really debated this week about a message that I bring on the difference between emotion and affection, and maybe we can do that at some other point. But I'll say this, you know, the bible talks about affection more than it talks about emotion. And there is a difference. And I think emotion is the fire that that initiates a connection. But affection is the fire that becomes form in our life. And and I think that that's where the anchor takes hold is when our hearts are realigned. Affection is when your heart comes into alignment and it is formed and structured after God. Emotions, fleeting affections, a more permanent condition that takes place because of the work of the holy spirit in our life. And then that becomes an anchor. We are now anchored in God. And that's where lifestyle, lifestyle comes out of affection. Lifestyle does not come out of emotion. You hear that? That's good preaching right there, brother. That dog a hunt. Yeah, that's sunday. That's sunday message for you. I got it. All right. Yeah, I'll break you off. I would I would totally agree with that. To me, it's what you're seeking. And unfortunately, a lot of charismatics are seeking sensational, emotional. If you're God gave us our emotions. And so it's good to express our emotions. If I'm we really didn't. And we don't ever say this around here. Just make clear. But we really didn't have church because we didn't do search and such things. But there's a group of charismatics that if you don't do certain things, you've not had church, they're not seeking God or worship. They're seeking emotion. And we've all been there. Come on. You've all been there. Man, that really was a move of God. Why? Because you cried around the altar. Nothing wrong with crying around the altar. But am I seeking that? Am I seeking God? So there's a real key, I think, in what I'm sitting in episcopal church one day at a community service and two ladies looking at the stained glass window, they said, now I can worship in this place. And I thought we do the same thing because our souls, nothing wrong, but our souls were ministered to by that song. So if we sing that song, I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying you got to be careful that you're not seeking that. You know, I couldn't worship today because they didn't sing my songs. So what am I seeking? I'm not saying God doesn't use it. I'm not saying you weren't ministered to. I'm not saying that at all. I mean, I want the to me was what you're seeking. You know, that would be the difference. But motion in a real spiritual move in my heart is what am I after? Am I after God? Because you can sit right there without any song, without anything and meditate upon the glory of the God and his throne. And I start getting moved, you know, and so because that's out of your heart, you're after God. So. And I think that becomes intentional. You know, emotions can happen to you, but the bible says set your affections on things above. So that's an intentional pursuit of God. Excellent. Yeah. What they said. Excellent. Powerful. I mean, really, really good. That's an excellent quote. I don't know that I've ever heard that articulated in that way. That's excellent. Very, very good. We get a lot of this. Let me ask kind of last from a spiritual father perspective. We get this question a lot, it seems like. And I know there's probably maybe disagreement even on how it how it happens. And that's probably why. Why of the reality of a spiritual father, spiritual son. Of course, when we say that mothers and daughters as well. But in the pursuit of that relationship, where does the responsibility of that lie in regards to sons pursuing fathers, fathers pursuing sons, what does that look like in your guys opinion? And then also when there has been, you know, your natural father maybe was not a good relationship. There's been a wound there. How has that affected you in that process? Maybe you guys could speak to that personally, but in a general sense as well. But just the opinion of how does how do those relationships come about? I know Glenn talks a lot about, you know, we say this almost every time we teach and preach on spiritual fathers and sons grab hold of the principle because we don't want people running around running out with their head on a swivel saying, I got to find a spiritual father because then it just becomes another thing to do. So could you guys speak to that a little bit? We seem to get that question a lot. That's that that's loaded. And I believe, again, it's it's it's one of those nuances in in the body of christ that people are really trying to figure out. And it becomes very challenging when we're in a culture of fatherlessness in the in the natural. That becomes a big challenge. I believe that every local leader that leads a congregation should carry a fathering spirit from the in the first place. I think that's where it originates. I think that he should be they should be an individual that moves from a strong place of serving men and women. But even now, whether people receive the servanthood of the leader has a lot of deals with a lot of factors that people deal with individually. But I believe that. The set leader should show themselves as a fathering servant, a fathering spirit to the house, to to love, to care for, to develop, to bring identity, to help lead people in place, the lord directs them to be accessible for people, to be open to people, some people respond to that and some will not, again, based on what they've they've been through. And there's a lot of parts to this and they can probably fill in I'm just filling in the part that I think I'm supposed to talk to. And that is, again, being this individual who leads but leads from the place of serving what that may look like can differ in circumstance and situations. But I think that the natural regard of fatherlessness ties into the spiritual regard of fatherlessness, where individuals have refused to. To serve what has been given to them, to serve those people into destiny, to not see them as members or to see them as congregants, but to see them as sons and then let people move in some measure of sonship. Some understand it, some don't. But I believe it's that people are able, by the spirit of the lord, to connect with there's something here that I've never experienced. From a leader. And I'm drawn to that. And when I'm drawn to that, I begin to pursue what I find in the heart of that person and let that connection manifest something that can span generations. That that's my piece to this, Randy. Yeah, I think I think there's an organic nature to it that we need to really make sure of, because, again, there's movements. You know, there was a season there and probably still exists in some places where everybody was going around trying to become a father and trying to find sons so that they can have some status. Right. I'm a father. I'm a spiritual father now. And I think that was the whole problem with much of the apostolic prophetic movement. And I think it's a lot what terrell's saying. It's just a matter of serving and leading out of who you are. You know, if god is sovereign and he will draw and pull people together and that becomes an organic process and spiritual sons that I have. I didn't go out and try to recruit sons. You know, I didn't go out. I didn't go to an adoption agency and say, I need a spiritual son. You know, where's the paperwork? No. Yeah. Sign here. No, I just I just served and, you know, responded and loved on guys. And and once you win their heart and there's trust and credibility and they know you care about them, they start responding as a son and they start coming and seeking, you know, your input in their life. And they want to be like you. And that's the that's humbling, very humbling, but very honoring. When a young man says, you know, I really appreciate your investment in my life and I want I want to be accountable. So here I am. I'm yours. And and I don't take that lightly. You know, I feel. Very unqualified and very unworthy. But at the same time, if that's what god is is doing sovereignly, connecting that kind of relationship heart to heart, head to head and all the different connection points, then you just walk in it and you don't have to make it happen, you know, again, goes back to sovereign. If we believe in the sovereignty of god, then we just surrender and submit to what god's doing in our lives. And then he creates the family dynamic. And everyone in our ministries won't receive that. It doesn't make them bad, but everyone didn't receive christ. And the highest level of servitude and generosity that he and honor that he gave to all people all didn't receive him. We don't put them out. We don't get rid of them. Maybe it's not timing and season for them to come into that dynamic. But I know I've discovered I know those that are true sons in our house, male and female. And I know those that are struggling. With it, because a lot of times people feel as though it's a dishonor to their natural parents to have a spiritual parent. And they wrestle with that because it's like my dad was great. He was awesome. People may feel like that and they feel like they're taking away. I remember the greatest thing I did was connect my natural dad with my spiritual father, bishop long. I just connected them and that dynamic helped. But a lot of people feel like I can't give that honor to someone else. And you just continue to love them through that. They may come around. They may not. But whether I and I'll hush here, whether I was whether I you become a spiritual son or not, I still have a fathering heart towards you. Whether you know, because I remember when when my spiritual father ran into some major challenges morally. And I had pastors from all over the country calling me to be my spiritual father. You know, we weren't even saying what the what then. But I was like, what the what? But, you know, they saw prestige. They saw status. They saw a tide. I'll say that they saw a tide and they wanted to dive into that. And I didn't know him from adam, but they were feeling like they could shop me. But glenn, well, I would say to paul was in this. You know, he. He said, I'm not an apostle to everyone. Yeah. You know, those who receive me as such, I'm willing to give, but not everyone's going to see me in that way. So that goes to what you're some real good wisdom here. The question is, do the spiritual fathers pursue the sons? Do the sons pursue the spiritual fathers? And the answer is yes. And because that's the that's the organic, that's the organic part. And that's the the natural part. And I believe we're none of us in this room are orphans. Now, we may have an orphan heart, but none of us are orphans. Right. And that has to be really settled first. There has to be a true understanding that you're a son of his first and foremost, above everything. So that has to be settled. Otherwise, you're you're going after things that are not there. To one of y'all's words about the pursuit of of that to get numbers really creates things and servants and not fathers and sons. It's it's a whole, you know, paul says, fathers say, but for their children, not the children for the fathers. And so there's a whole mindset that we're not careful. We get out of order. I'm not saying there's not honor, but there's a lot of area. And I think also we lay claim to something too quickly. Like if I were to work with the congregation, somebody says, are you apostle to us? I don't know if there's fruit of it later. You tell me because there's a key. Now, I didn't I didn't say they weren't in my heart. I didn't say I didn't care for them. But there's got to be fruit of it the same way about spiritual fathers and spiritual sons, because if you pursue something to make it happen or you lay claim to somebody, I'm your spiritual father, man, you're setting up for a big wound, big wound. It's got to be just so natural, even in a no, we're not being adopted or anything. But in natural, someone would you may not be your biological son, but man, they would see, hey, this is my father. So you've seen couples blended marriages where those parents really became true moms and dads, though they didn't birth them. That's that's the organic part of it. That is the fruit of it, the labor of it. And I also want to I want to make this point is paul says you have not many. He didn't say you have one. I do believe that some who will us who lead the house can be a father to the house. And some can think because he's a father to the house, he's a personal spiritual father to me. And that may not be necessary. That may not be the case. And I think also it has to be so organic. I know paul probably had more than three, but he only names three. Onesimus, titus and timothy is the only three, you know, and you look at jesus. He had twelve, but there was three. So I don't really know the whole pattern there. What I'm saying is there should not be any aggression to try to get some nor any pressing to try to have one. But to see who god and here's what I would say to you. If you were in a crisis, who would you go to? That tells you who has who has spiritual entrance in your life. Whether a spiritual father or not, they have spiritual entrance in your life. And you walk those things out. And one of the things I've noticed, too, is when spiritual sons really draw and they want, you know, I've had some sit over here as orphans and saying nobody really cares for me. And then I have some that just pester you because they're there in a good way. And it's just natural. You know, they want to pray with you. They want to be around. They want to draw from. It's just a natural. No one's making anything happen. I didn't. And so there's a pursuit in one sense of both ways. So I think the answer is yes. I also think there's other roles, male roles, spiritual male roles in our lives as well. I mean, they're spiritual uncles, they're spiritual brothers. And I think it's it's wise for us to also recognize what kind of roles people have in our lives, because sometimes we can mistake someone to be a spiritual father when really they're just a spiritual brother. And that doesn't that doesn't minimize their role in my life. It maximizes the role once you identify what that role actually entails. Really good. Glenn, this a little bit of a setup, because I don't know if it's possible to do this. You didn't explicitly say this, but you talked around it. One of the major principles, I guess, it would govern here in the house would be violating someone's conscience. And it seems to happen a lot in that area. Could you take a couple of minutes and wrap us up in talking about that? Well, in the 80s, when we were getting getting some understanding of authority and submission, we were charged strongly in a book written against us. Part of it was charged for shepherding. And I didn't know anything about shepherding. But we were using terms like authority and submission, spiritual fathers, spiritual sons, apostles and prophets, and the fort lauderdale five that had set up truly the idea of true discipleship would even tell you later that they transgressed and went too far. And so in 86, 87, we were getting in 88. We were in a trauma of people being hurt and some of it came out of past wounds. And the book that was written against us, that particular lady was hurt in shepherding. And I didn't know about that. We didn't have an encounter retreat to find that out in those days. So we we didn't know about getting people healed. We just get them straightened up. You know, so you can't get straightened up if you're not healed. But anyway, we didn't know that. But in that we were really seeing, wait a minute, what is this? Why? Why is there's this? Where's this? What's this? What's getting triggered? What's coming out? Use the word submission. You know, so where's this coming from? And we realized, wait a minute, we're transgressing people's conscience. And people will give you their conscience to transgress. And paul, you know, said, even if my own heart says I'm innocent, that doesn't mean I'm innocent, so I don't even know my own heart in that sense. But your conscience belongs to god and nobody else. So if I tell you what god's will is for your life, I'm just transgressed. Your conscience or you come to me and you say, god told me. That's why we don't have a lot of god told me, because once you say that you eliminated everybody else because nobody's on that pay scale. He's the only one that is. So I'm not saying god doesn't speak to us, but I think we need to warn some of the charismatic and I don't hear it too much. But god told me this. god told me that god does speak to us, but be more humble. OK, just say, let me tell you what's in my heart. I want to submit it to you. And so we have a one, two and three. Right around here, a one is I just thought of it. You can disagree with me. A two is I've given this a lot of thought. Be kind to me when you disagree. A three, thus said the lord. And we don't have a lot of threes, even though we know when god, you know what I'm saying, we don't come and bring that on that. This is what you got to be, because if it is the will of the lord, he'll work it in them. But I think this transgressing of conscience is it is key, I think, for leaders. And so we ought to pursue that understanding because otherwise you really can't have spiritual fathers if you don't really know your entrance and when you transgress their heart and when you didn't transgress their heart and and and we let people transgress us. And if here's what I notice when their conscience transgress, they'll hate you. So if somebody is hating you, I'm stuck. But that is sometimes in leadership. Leadership sometimes does do transgress people and and they don't know they did it. And some of the church hurt, so to speak, comes out of that. So it's really, really good. Thank you, guys. That was good. Give them a great big hand, would you? That was powerful. A lot of good wisdom there, you know, a why don't we make it back in here? Ten twenty five. That's about 17 minutes. And we're going to have some sharing from different ones and then have some prayer time and we'll just see what the lord does. So ten twenty five. We released.
